The Guys On: Life, Death and the Hierarchy

"Make everything as simple as possible,
but not simpler."
~Albert Einstein~

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Last year a neighbor of mine who'd been very ill, with a form of lung cancer that had metastasized into her bones, had some questions about her illness she thought the guys could answer. She came in with a list that did not directly ask about dying. The session was so meaningful to her that she wrote it up herself for use on this blog.

She died peacefully earlier this summer.

This is the full transcript of that session, edited only slightly for privacy.

Guys: So we have a question for you: What are your feelings or your thoughts or your fears about death?

Client: I’m very worried about my children and I’m worried about my husband,. but I’m not worried about me.

Guys: Why is that?

Client: Because I think my soul will be moving on to do something else.

Guys: And that feels smooth for you. Any glitches in that?

Client: The only thing I’m worried about is, not so much the pain associated with death because that’s treated, but going through losing my physical capacities.

Guys: That’s more the degeneration part that you’re concerned about, but the actual passing?

Client: I’m not concerned about that. I’m kind of excited about it.

Guys: Excellent, excellent.
So, that’s kind of what we see in terms of the energy, ..that not only are you prepared to die in many ways, but there’s a part of you that’s kind of curious. You’re right at that point where there’s an aspect of your unconscious that is kind of reaching out to see what’s going on there, and that’s completely reasonable for someone who is feeling the closure…

There are places inside of you at an unconscious level that you’re hoping to make more conscious by your first questions, that is kind of going, okay, come on, can we just kind of get on with it here, this part isn’t very much fun and I’m really not looking forward to it. Does that kind of make sense to you?

Client: Yes.

Guys: So, we may go about this in a nonlinear way as we address what it is that you’re interested in. The first thing that we want to support you in doing is in letting go of your concerns for both your children and for Will.

Client: Why?

Guys: The concern is socially condoned but not really reasonable ...if you can make sense of that. You’ve been encouraged through all of your lives, not just this one, to focus a great deal on the idea of weakness in humanity rather than ... what we’d like to support you in thinking and coming to understand... EVERYONE is divine incarnate walking the earth and that there is no one here who is NOT the divine incarnate walking the earth. Your children are divine, your husband is divine, Ava is divine, Rich is divine, whoever it is, EVERYONE is spirit in body, PLAYING here... not WORKING here. The idea of being here working is part of the game spirit has been playing ...we call it the "hierarchical game".

So spirit comes in, in order to have experiences that are very unlike it. And spirit, as you recognize, is unlimited, boundless, all-seeing, all-knowing, all over the place. Spirit can do whatever it wants, because it’s all-powerful. If you think about what might be an adventure for spirit that can have and be and do everything and anything unlimited, and imagine that the challenge would be in limitation, to creating a way to limit yourself.

Client: I’m not sure that I’m following you. So you’re saying that it’s challenging to limit myself in some way and then see if I can go beyond it?

Guys: No, to see if you can surrender to limitation,... that’s the challenge. Within your culture and within the world view, that what we call the hierarchical game is set up for you, the idea is to become unlimited, as if that’s an evolutionary goal. But, if you were to really see what’s happening here, you’d realize that you’re already unlimited. And that you came here to play with limits and boundaries.

So you’re familiar with the phrase, the macrocosm is in the microcosm? The universe is in a grain of sand.

Client: Yes.

Guys: And you’ve already experienced the deep joy of focus and concentration on a specific task and have experienced it taking you into a universe that’s ENTIRELY different from the one that you have when you’re just kind of flitting around and doing this and that.

Client : Yes...but tell me more about the hierarchical game.

Guys: One of the things that Ava didn’t get a chance to tell you is that we have a purpose in being here... we, meaning "the guys", as Ava calls us. And that purpose is supporting the people that are interested in making a "transition" out of the hierarchical game into a different way of viewing reality and being in the world, but while still in the body. We have describe the process required to do that as "bringing the unconscious to conscious - because within your unconscious is your memory of your divinity".

Which means that you can be in the body knowing you’re the divine incarnate, knowing that limitation is a game played by choice; it’s not something to evolve past...or learn or earn your way out of. It’s also not about earning or learning your way off the planet. You worked really hard to get here. And you really wanted to be playing with limits and boundaries, space and time. So, brilliantly, within the hierarchical game, spirit set up an opportunity to pretend it was weak and powerless in order to experience what that might be like. It’s really wild!

It works like this: The object of the game, (every game has an object), is to go from Slime to Sublime, as we like to say. You must earn or learn your way off the planet and/or into the Grace of God.

So the very first thing you do, in order to play this game, is you "check your divinity at the door". You can’t come in and play this game knowing that you’re divine; it’s just not going to work. See, you already know this at some level.

Client: yes...that makes sense.

Guys: So you come in and you open yourself to limitation. And you do that by making choices that will allow you to experience specific kinds of limitation in order to feel what it’s like to be limited in power and options. And then to see what happens, ...what you can make of that, what you can do with that.

So some entities/spirits (and this is another aspect of this dynamic) come in with an extremely adventurous spirit, very, very adventurous. We think of them as the same type of spiritual energy as you might see in the kinds of humans that do extreme sports. The people that do extreme sports are ready to die in the blink of an eye. They don’t care if they die because they want the rush. They want to be able to push themselves and see how far they can take something.

So if you understand that some humans are willing to take a helicopter to the top of a mountain in order to ski down in territory that has never been skied before, and is willing to risk their lives to do it; they don’t care whether they make it or don’t make it. They just want to see if they CAN make it. Or people that climb those sheer cliffs, with ropes and pulleys, or deep sea divers that go into cages to see what it’s like to be with a shark.

Again, microcosm/macrocosm. Ifa human limited being is willing to experience this kind of thing consciously and willfully, imagine how much more unlimited spirit would be willing to experience in the body.

So that’s where you get people that are willing to be in an earthquake zone, people that are willing to be tortured, people that are willing to be brought up in extremely abusive families. See, for spirit, this is an adventure.

Client: Wow!

Guys: You don’t want that.

Client: No.

Guys: So you can see, that wouldn’t really appeal to you, so you aren't doing that. But there are things that you as a human find exciting and interesting that might upset or bore the hell out of someone else.

Client: Yes...I can see that. This disease has been an adventure, in a way.

Guys: Exactly so!
Outside of the body, spirit is as diverse as the personalities within the body ...but with more power, more options, more perspective. So, the usual example that we support people with is this... you go into a movie, you know beforehand it’s going to last 2 _ or 3 hours or whatever, and you go in with the intention of surrendering to whatever is on the screen. You give yourself over to the feelings. If it’s sad you cry, if it’s scary you get scared, you intentionally surrender to that. But there’s never a point that you don’t know that you can get up and walk out if you want tot. You have a 3-hour movie; ...spirit has a lifetime.

It's the microcosm/macrocosm... human life is just a smaller version of what there is out there anyway. So the diversity of experience that’s available here on this planet – just this planet – is a reflection of the diversity of personality that spirit has ...and the diversity of interests that spirit has ...and what it wants to experience. So if you think about this planet as just a very complicated and sophisticated Disneyland, you can pretty much find something really exciting to do here. And there’s no fear, meaning spirit has no fear of coming here; it created this, it orchestrated it, it knows exactly what’s going on here because it put it all together.

Client: So can you tell me more about what I’ve put together for myself?

Guys: Well, you can kind of see already. As you’re listening to us talk, you’re already making a few connections, aren’t you? That this particular part of your life is very difficult partially because you’ve been afraid that it’s an indicator that you were doing something wrong.

Client: I don’t know; I don’t know if I agree with that.

Guys: Why do you have this disease? Have you made mistakes? How did you get to this point?

Client: Well, I keep looking at it as a gift.

Guys: Excellent. How?

Client: I guess a gift in that it’s made me realize that I wanted to spend more time with friends, more time with family…

Guys: Lovely; now stop right there, rewind, and go back a bit in time to the first awareness without what it is that you’ve come to. Meaning when you first were diagnosed, was there not confusion there?

Understand oftentimes we can’t necessarily see what you’ve worked through but we see this wide variety of potential and past. So mechanically, there was a point in this process where there was a lot of confusion and self-judgment. So the fact that you’ve worked through so much of it, is part of what we were talking about earlier as, “you’re ready.” There’s a part of you that says, “Okay, I get it, I’m going to hold onto to whatever it is that’s really wonderful.”

Client: Well I’m ready, but I’m not ready.

Guys: Yes. How much of not being ready is about your husband and the children?

Client: Most of it.

Guys: Excellent.

Client: I wanted to see my son find his soulmate (And you will, whether you’re here or not, you will) and he did (Excellent), he just got married, and now I feel the same for my other son, and I want to see grandchildren. I say in my mind that even if I’m not here, I’ll see all this, but it’s a hard thing to hang onto.

Guys: Exactly!
And that’s where if we see that push-pull that’s going on for you, that confusion between what you should be feeling and how this should be playing out – that may be a little confusing, let’s see if we can rewind that a moment. Remember when we were saying earlier, there are things that basically you’ve been trained to experience as normal reactions and normal responses and normal feelings when it comes to being concerned about your family. Okay? So what we want to offer to you is an alternative way to relate to that by really being able to see how powerful you are and how powerful they are in terms of their choices to be here, so that you can leave the uncomfortable part on the side. You can be with them for however long you are here, and just have the ooey, gooey, juicy part for however much time you have left here. Without this concern about what’s going to happen to them, then it becomes all about that.

Client: Are there things that I still need to do?

Guys: In regard to what?

Client: This lifetime?

Guys: There’s not a single thing that you have on your plate left to do other than enjoy the rest of your life.

Client:Why is that?

Guys: Okay, give us a moment here... So, we’re going to give you more of an image. It’s a tricky kind of thing for us, because oftentimes we see energetic pictures without actually knowing what they mean, but hopefully you’ll be able to understand this.

When we look at this particular lifetime for you, we don’t very often go into past lives with people, but there are a couple of things here that we can tie in. There was a longing from way past, meaning beyond this lifetime, to be able to have a lifetime that was very, very human. Regardless of what has been going on around you, there’s been a place inside of you that from the very moment that you entered the womb was very solid and very grounded. There’s a part of you that’s always been observing what’s been going on around you. Does that make sense to you?

Client: Yes.

Guys: It didn’t matter how small you were, you were very interested in relationships and dynamics and how people related to each other, and related to you. You were interested in what this meant and what that meant. Most children go through their lives without tracking, in a scientific kind of way, what’s going on and what things mean... but you tracked your life. Does that make sense to you? Can you relate to that?

Client: Yes, I can

Guys: You have paid attention to what’s been going on around you and have been looking to find your place in things, and trying to find out what works for you, what works for others, how things fit and come together...it has been a real desire on your part to understand and experience just being human.

Client: I was just going to comment that I’ve done a lot of different things career-wise, like I can very much relate that to what you’re saying, just that I’ve wanted to try out a lot of different things. I was a teacher, I was a marketing director, and then I was a dietitian. I’ve gone to school my whole life. I always feel like whatever I’m doing, I’m looking forward to trying the next thing.

Guys: Yes, you see, you’re always studying. It’s the mark of What we call a "systems analyst". Ava’s a systems analyst and there are more of you. It’s that tracking. You don’t do anything without tracking it. How it fits with other things, how these things come together, how they line up. So the difference between when we say you just wanted to be human, it’s not just feeling human, it’s understanding human. Being in there, but watching it, learning it, studying it. How does this work? How does that work? Well, how did that come together and why did they chose this, why did I chose this, why do I want this? Why does this go that way? Why doesn’t it work this way? What if I do this, and what if I do that, and I’m going to try this. It’s been kind of like the mark of this lifetime for you. And that’s because in many of your past lives, you basically just dived in, not very much consciousness (and we don’t mean stupid or anything), but just surrender to emotions or surrender to…whatever strikes your fancy.

We’ll give you an example: You were a bullfighter. Can you see, that’s takes a certain kind of focus and a certain kind of concentration. You were, as a very small child, in a family of people that did just this one thing, and in that way you learned to do that in a very narrow way; you learned to shut out everything else, ignore everything else.

You’ve had many recent lifetimes of that kind. So, if you get that, you’ll be able to put it together. It’s really very, very logical. Can you see how many different things have been of interest to you in this life? So in the past, you’ve devoted whole lifetimes to one thing and surrendered into that thing but without paying attention, without consciously tracking what you were doing.

Whereas in this lifetime, you’ve been really tracking what you’ve been doing. You’ve been analyzing all of your personal systems and all of the systems around you. It’s kind of "in" but not quite "in". You dive in but you pay attention and you watch. You track. You organize. So this life was all about conscious experience of the diversity of all of your interests. And you can see, you’ve done really, really well. And this is kind of a logical end, isn’t it? To give yourself an opportunity to experience this. Look at how prevalent cancer is in the consciousness of this country. There’s very little that’s more human.


Client: I often think about this time of my life as…I am so spoiled. My husband spoils me incredibly and sometimes I think to myself…

Guys: Okay, can we do a correction here on the language? You're "Pampered".

Client: Yeah.

Guys: You’re not spoiled, you’re pampered.

Client: I’m very pampered. And sometimes I think why do I deserve to be so pampered?

Guys: Exactly. When we were talking before, sometimes these things, they wind together in a goofy way, but they really make sense. Remember we were saying to you that you had confusion and the guilt about being sick. There are places inside that are more about that little girl inside of you, (rather than this grown, intelligent woman you are), who really thinks you’re being punished, that this is a bad thing that’s happened to you. So therefore, why do you deserve anybody being good to you or nice to you or pampering you in this way.

Client: I never thought about it that way.

Guys: It’s an odd kind of thing. We spend a lot of time, with the people that we work with on a regular basis, talking about the distinction between the Adult you and the Kid you. If you don’t know that there is a small child that is fully conscious, trying to protect you, and trying to guide you, and trying to support you, based on your parents and the culture’s world view, then you can’t take full credit for the adult that you’ve become. You’re constantly being cramped by these underlying feelings of “I don’t deserve this.” The Kid is trying to protect you by making sure that you don’t screw up.

Client: In what way?

Guys: Well, making sure you don't offend God, or go against some cultural thing. The Kid is always checking/monitoring/scanning for what could wrong with you in any given moment.

Now, when we talk about the Kid, we’re not talking about the inner child that is in the pop culture, ... the beautiful, mystical child that you’re supposed to take care of and reclaim. That’s not the child that we see haunting people. It’s the child of all of your fears and confusions and misdeeds from the way that you were handled and treated when you were small. The Kid expresses the confusion that came about from not understanding why your parents didn’t see you in the way that you thought you ought to have been seen,... or didn’t see each other in the way that you thought they should see each other, ...or didn’t respond to the world etc.

There’s this very odd process that happens in childhood, particularly for someone like you who’s so analytical in this lifetime. You tracked so many things that didn’t really make sense and you plowed through trying to do what made sense to you ... but without recognizing that you’ve still got this little one in the subconscious saying, “But what if they’re right? What if it should be this way? But what if you’re screwy? And what if you really don’t know what you’re doing? What if you oughta…maybe you should have done that?” And she runs quietly in the background. See, once you recognize that Kid voice, you can ignore it or negate, cut the cord, so-to speak, ...then there are all kinds of things that can change.

Client: …a book which you probably know, Sacred Contracts… It’s written by Carolyn Myss.

Guys: We don’t know that book but we are familiar with her.

Client: She talks about archetypes, and one of them is the child archetype and I’ve been trying to go through the process in that book of identifying my archetypes and I get stuck on the child because it’s hard for me to find the child in me.

Guys: How does she describe the child archetype?

Client: Kind of what you were just describing, it could be any difficulty that you had in childhood, or pain, or feelings of punishment. Very much the way you have described it.

Guys: And you had difficulty relating to it because?

Client: It’s so hard for me to think of myself as a child, I’m never childlike, I don’t like to play. Even when my kids were little, I’d play games with them but I wasn’t a person to get down on the floor and play with their trucks.

Guys: You’re a systems analyst. That’s what happens when you come in very mental. And this is not a bad thing. An opportunity to be different.... the most recent lifetimes, that surround the choices for this lifetime, no analysis.

Client: In those other lifetimes?

Guys: Exactly.

Client: Well, not to wander all over the place…

Guys: Please do.

Client: When you talked about the idea of being a bullfighter (which I’ve never thought about ), the part I can relate to is, what has fascinated me my whole life has been people who devote themselves to a single thing, because that’s not me, at least in this life.

Guys: Exactly.

Client: But I’ve been fascinated by, for example, ice skaters, or dancers. Dancers in particular.

Guys: You’ve done all of that.

Client: I’ve always wondered if I was a dancer in another life.

Guys: Absolutely. All of your past lives that led into the decision to have this life have been non-analytical and totally focused on one fascination.

Client: Can you tell me about any of the others?

Guys: Well you know you have danced, then there’s… hmmmmm...you’ve also been a beach bum/surfer...also very focused!

Well, this is off-planet, but you invented elsewhere a very technical, scientific contraption that allowed for a shift in a space-time dynamic, elsewhere, that made it possible for certain things to relate to each other that were very, very far apart. But it was a huge, very focused lifetime, again within a very scientific thing.

You’ve been in very, very cold climates, where all there was, was survival. You’ve been places where there was no water, where everything was so focused on just being able to get by…

See, every single lifetime around you recently has required an entire commitment to a single goal, with no analysis, no thought. And you loved all of them, but got to a point that said, you know what? There’s something missing here. I want to go do a few things and pay attention to what’s going on around me and how what I’m doing fits in and how what’s going on around me fits in with me. I want to find my place consciously. I want to keep an analytical distance; I want to analyze the system, even while I’m in it.


Client: So, is this the first life in which I have been spiritually aware?

Guys: No. Some very focused lives, have been in monasteries, you’ve done that as well. You spent lifetimes completely devoted to…

Client: That’s so interesting because some of these things that you are talking about have just been fascinations for me during this lifetime.

Guys: And it makes perfect sense, because, can you feel that your part in this lifetime is to keep them at a distance. So you became curious "about" them, without indulging "in" them, and the things that you’ve indulged, have all been things that you could control, meaning they didn’t involve you having to give up so much that you would have to devote yourself.

So you’ve picked things that would allow you to keep an arm’s distance and still have a life. That’s why we’re saying, in terms of being human, to give yourself a chance to be a human here, without abandoning what it is that you wanted to do, which was also study humanity.

Client: So, I’m wondering if that was the reason that I made changes, because I was getting too focused?

Guys: Makes sense, doesn’t it? When you could see that the next step would involve you giving more, surrendering more, then that’s the point that you would decide to pull out.

Client: I’ve never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense now. It was very hard for me to retire, for example, because I just didn’t feel like it was anything I’d ever do. And I guess that’s partly related to this feeling of being pampered.

Guys: Go ahead, say more about that.

Client: Well, when I retired, I wasn’t working, I wasn’t giving back to other people in the same way. I mean, I think I’m definitely giving back to other people now in true friendships, being a mother, being a wife, whatever. But, it was hard to accept that as a role when I first retired. Does that make any sense?

Guys: It makes perfect sense. It’s part of that tricky little package, ...to be a systems analyst independent of humanity and still be human. But can you see that this pulled in that human factor? And you’ve still been studying. What does it mean to be a good wife, what does it mean to be this kind of a friend, what does it mean?

Client: Does it mean “ and how do I do it?”

Guys: How does that happen? What’s my relationship to that? What’s that relationship to me? So then you start thinking about being pampered and then you’re analyzing again.

Client: And if I’m not analyzing, if I get to a point where I’m really engrossed in the day-to-day activities, if I’m not analyzing, then all of a sudden I realize that and go back to analyzing.

Guys: You don’t want to miss that part, because that’s what you came for. Because all of these other lives have been about surrender, so you go so far and then you pull back and go, okay, I want to pay attention to what just happened here. When you've done that enough, then you feel comfortable going back and doing that some more. After awhile there’s a bell that goes off, or something goes off, that says, okay, back up a little. What just happened here? What have I been doing? Why am I doing this? You put the pieces into place somewhere in a way that works and then okay, you feel like you’ve done that so now I can go back and do this.

And that’s pretty much the scope of this life: in and out, in and out, go check this out, how does this feel, go in, have that experience of being in there, uuppp, come out.

Client: So I’ve played the game, and…

Guys: ....watched the game. But you didn’t know it was a game to the extent that it is. That’s the piece that you’re getting today, to be able to recognize that that’s all been a game, so whatever part of you was afraid it was serious, important, spiritually meaningful, ... well, you can relax about that completely.

Client: Isn’t it spiritually meaningful?

Guys: Not in the way you’ve been trained to think it is, ...meaning spirit gives meaning to everything based on its pleasure and whim and desire. Spirit is not hierarchical. That’s a construct. Spirit does not deal with good, bad, right, wrong, unless it’s playing.

Client: What do you mean when you say, it’s not hierarchical?

Guys: Spirit doesn’t have a hierarchy. There are no lesser or greater spiritual beings or experiences. Spirit does not judge, other than based on its preference. So a spirit may prefer a certain experience, but it doesn’t judge it as better. Another spiritual entity may value the opposite experience more. So what?

It’s another part of the transition that we talk about. Exiting out of the hierarchy is to start recognizing that all experience is subjective. The concept that subjective reality is all there is. Meaning, there is no possible objective reality. It all changes, depending on your vantage point.

So the number one rule in getting to play the hierarchical game is that you have check your divinity at the door. As soon as you enter the hierarchical game, the number one rule becomes (and there are many rules)… is that you will pretend that there is an absolute criteria for everything. Even though... every day in your life, you will see that there’s an absolute criteria for nothing.

Client: Can you explain more?

Guys: Okay. Do you understand absolute criteria?

Client: Yes.

Guys: Love, for example. Everyone knows what love is? Not so. Everyone has a different definition of love, they just pretend there’s one definition of love. While playing the hierarchical game you’re going to pretend that everyone agrees what love is; you’re going to pretend that everyone agrees what’s good. You’re going to pretend that there’s agreement on what’s right, you’re going to pretend that there’s agreement on what’s better. When every day, in every way, your life shows you no one agrees on any of this. They just pretend. So depending upon what sub-game of the hierarchical game you are playing, you will concoct absolute criteria for that sub-game and pawn it off as the only criteria. So if you’re Muslim, you have an absolute criteria about what it means to be in a proper relationship to God. If you’re a conscientious Catholic, you’re going to pretend that only Catholics can go to heaven, that God only loves Catholics and will only allow them in. See, these are nonsensical, arbitrary criteria that you pretend are absolute while you’re playing this game, when every day you walk out and these are shattered left and right, everywhere you look. ...and you look away.

Client: So you can still keep pretending?

Guys: Yes, because that’s the game. Let's say you come into a room and your kids are playing Monopoly. What kind of reception would you get if you walked up to them and said, oh, come on, those aren’t hotels. That’s not real money. That’s not Boardwalk. That’s a board that’s got these plastic pieces on it. What are you doing? That’s all true that these are plastic pieces, but what are they going to say to you? ... Mom, go away! We’re having fun here, go away! So in order to play the game, and not spoil it for others, you’re going to pretend a lot!

Now we, as a collective, (along with many, many other aspects of spirit) are here, within this time-frame, supporting a shift in consciousness for those who are interested it. That shift in consciousness is just about the awareness that you are the divine incarnate walking the earth, playing with limits and boundaries and space and time, ...for FUN. These are games.

You’re playing at being vulnerable, you’re playing at being powerless, you’re playing at not having choices, you’re playing at karma, you’re playing at being stuck here, you’re playing with all of these limitations, because they’re fun. But at another level of your being, ...you don’t buy it for a minute. You also know that you can leave at any time, and people check out in all kinds of ways. "Okay, enough of that game, I’m outa here". You pretend that suicide is bad. No it’s not.

Client: And then you move on to something else?

Guys: Yeah. That’s more fun.
So, all this is deliberately and specifically relevant for you right now. You're giving yourself an opportunity to not worry about your husband and not worry about your children. They, too, are the divine incarnate walking the earth, they signed up to be with you while you’re going through this. The did that in order to enrich THEIR experience of you and life. And if they lose you – soon, or later, whenever – they want to be in that kind of a situation in order to have that loss as a part of their being.

So for you, to let go of being concerned about what they do with their experience of you, while you’re here or after you’re gone, is really hard. But we’re saying, you can let go of that and just enjoy them, and trust – and we wouldn’t say this to you if it weren’t so – trust that you’re adding to their experience with anything and everything that you do.

Client: Wow. Good.

Guys: Excellent. All right. Well, it’s been our pleasure.