Wednesday, August 31, 2005

Old session with a new client - Part 1

"That's the whole problem with science.
You've got a bunch of empiricists trying to describe things of unimaginable wonder."
~Calvin & Hobbes~


This session from 1994 with a client who came in only once, but asked some very core and provocative questions. I am putting it up in 2 parts because it's very long and because there's a natural break in topics. The first part is on the nature of "reality", the second starts with health. I've also included the part before The Guys actually came in where I talk some about what the process is like for me.

AVA: Do you have any questions about the process itself?

CLIENT: Do I talk to you and you talk to them, or do I talk to them directly?

AVA: You talk to them directly. I'm a conscious channel. It's a leap of faith for me. What happens as I presence the energy... I get two physical cues, which is what I wait for, because otherwise I don't know if I'm nuts or making stuff up or what; but I have a sensation in my body and then I have a sensation in my throat. The body sensation comes first; the throat sensation comes second. It's almost like filling up; it's almost like the words are backing up. It gets to a certain intensity and then I just kind of open my mouth and start to speak. They deal with everybody differently. So sometimes they'll come out and they have something to say and they'll say it. Other times they'll come out asking questions and they ask questions and ask questions and ask questions. Other times they will kind of go back... I never know what they're going to do, and they talk to everybody differently. So.

CLIENT: They are genderless?

AVA: They're genderless. They've never been "in body". They're multiples. People have asked, how many. And they say that the smallest number that has shown up with anyone is 20,000 and the largest number has been upwards of six million. But they speak with one voice. Now, I don't know how this is (both parties laugh) . But they way that they've described it is that everyone here has an enormous spiritual fan club of energies and entities that are specifically and personally interested in them; and that within this group soul, that there is that kind of a thing that happens — the same way that certain bowl clubs have followings and sports have followings and chess teams and tennis teams.

CLIENT: It's good to have them on your side, don't you think?

AVA: I think there's no other way it could be. One of the things that they say is that the universe is one hundred percent for you, zero percent against you and that that's a fact, and that that's the entire universe, and that it isn't fractioned off in the way we're afraid it is.

CLIENT: Well, let's see if they will emerge.

(And, of course, they do)

GUYS: All right, well we're ready if you are.
Well, the first thing that we notice, is that your energy is very very stable.

CLIENT: Stable?

GUYS: Stable.

CLIENT: Can you tell roe what stable means?

GUYS: Are you having any kind of a crisis in your life?

CLIENT: No more than I... I've always had a crisis in my life.

GUYS: Yes, and there's a certain stability in that. There isn't anything untoward in the way that your energy is operating. Do you know, when we look at you (energetically, which means it's beyond what's going on here), you have an agenda for yourself. You've set it up very cleanly and very specifically. Do you have a sense of what we're saying here?

CLIENT: Yes, but how do I know that the agenda I have is the correct agenda for me?

GUYS: Well, it's impossible for it not to be, and it might be useful for you to bridge from that doubt to that understanding; and maybe that' s what we could use this time for — so that you could feel less out to drift. Do you know what we mean?... less of that confusion that comes from misunderstanding your uniqueness and the way that you run your energy.

CLIENT: I wonder about how one goes down any number of spiritual paths in one's life.

GUYS: All right.

CLIENT: I've met many teachers; I've met many people who purport to be gurus.

GUYS: Yes.

CLIENT: And I have, for the most part felt that that was a wrong path for me.

GUYS: To be following someone?

CLIENT: That's correct.

GUYS: Excellent. All right.

CLIENT: I've often believed in Krishna Murti's doctrine that the guru destroys the disciple and that the disciple destroys the guru.

GUYS: It is not meant to be a lasting relationship. It's meant to be an attention getting relationship. Do you understand?


GUYS: So, what is the concern then?

CLIENT: Well, when one follows a path — I've started on a new path in the last few years and — one always wonders whether what one finds at first is delusional: You find what you want to find; or do you find what is really there?

GUYS: Ah! All right. So this is the conversation we can have then about reality. What is real and what isn't?

(Personal exchange happens here then the Guys continue.)

GUYS: We're here for one reason, one reason only: and that's to support a certain period in history while the planet and this dimensional process goes through a transition; and it's a transition in consciousness; so basically, we bring a version of the way this energy is shifting.

It's not the only version, but it's a very specific version that certain people line up with and are moving within, so that we don't purport in any way whatsoever to be an answer for everyone nor the answer for anyone. We have a vantage point and a specific kind of energy that can support a process that brings the unconscious to conscious within the individual and allows them to be more aware of what they already know, but at a deliberate and conscious level. So we have provocative energy and stabilizing energy, meaning that our energy is supportive, rather than creative.

CLIENT: Do you also have an unconscious that you bring to consciousness in another dimension?

GUYS: In another dimension, we have processes that are as enriching and enlivening within our version of reality as anything that you have — as challenging for us — as any version that you have. We are in no way, shape, or form superior. We are just different. We operate within a different game board. So the game board that you play on involves three-dimensional space with time and has involved a hierarchical overlay, ...which is part of what is available to transition out of. Our game board involves no space, no time, no material reference points, and no hierarchical overlay.

CLIENT: I have traveled in some of those dimensions.
GUYS: Yes.

CLIENT: I have met others along my travels.

GUYS: Yes, yes. We're not of that group, because most of the energy that we present is basically focused elsewhere but we're fans of this process and this dynamic, so, understand, there's a certain point beyond which what we're saying is nonsense because everyone is a part of everyone else and cannot be any other way. But at the point of differentiation, (which does not need to be material), energetic differentiation happens. From the point of differentiation on, we do not know each other. Before that point of differentiation, we are each other. But that's a whole other story. It really isn't relevant to what you're asking.

CLIENT: I understand that, yes.
GUYS: All right.

CLIENT: Now, let's talk about meditation and the role of meditation. What do you see for me?

GUYS: The role of meditation for you?
CLIENT: For me.

GUYS: It gives you a break. What it does for you is allow you to stay in touch with what is more true for you than what you're doing. Not better! But more accurate of your being. Do you follow? So it gives you a touchstone into a space that is more reasonable than where you are. When you come out of that space, you can cope with the unreasonableness, meaning the discrepancies in the energy, the peculiarities of what it takes to navigate through form, through time, through space with irrational (although they can be reasoned out) systems.

CLIENT: Some say that meditation is the route to the larger self or the real self as opposed to the...

GUYS: Well, it's the "other" self. It's an "other" self. The idea that there is The real self is just a construct. It is a hierarchical way of sorting something that once you move out of a hierarchical necessity — and we don't mean that in the least bit disrespectfully, but there are certain things within which a hierarchical sorting is useful...

CLIENT: But isn't there a self before there is incarnation, before there is birth?

GUYS: But if you're talking "before," then you're talking in linear time and you're already in a dimensional system that is dealing in linear time. So, if you talk about "before" linear time, it doesn't work; it doesn't compute, because "before" cannot be other than linear.

CLIENT: But if life and death are merely stages on a single continuum...

GUYS: In linear time, they're on a singular continuum.

CLIENT: In linear time.

GUYS: Outside of linear time, there is no singular continuum. Do you know or are you aware within your exploration, consciously (because your exploration unconsciously doesn't count here) that there is three-dimensional space with nonlinear time available and operative?

CLIENT: Yes. Yes.

GUYS: All right. So you can understand that outside of linear time, the rules are entirely different for three-dimensional space with time.

CLIENT: Well, I think there are many stages between the stage I happen to inhabit at this time and the three-dimensional nonlinear space. Because at that point, once you become nonlinear then who you are also is a question that disappears. Everything disappears.

GUYS: Yes, but why make that at the end rather than as a "pre?" Why an -anti" rather than a "pre?" Maybe that's where you came from rather than where you're going.

CLIENT: Exactly! I think it's both pre and anti. And that's what I think perhaps the self is all about — it is what was there before and after and that this is simply an interim, this particular life.

GUYS: Well, when you say "simply" with that energy, we would disagree — because it's not "simply," anything. It is the focal point of an enormous amount of work and energy. It took an awful lot for it to become what it is. And if there's one thing it's not, it's "simple." And the energy within which "simply" is contained, which means it's "less than" or "not terribly important"
we would disagree with. This is massively wondrous. It's cumulatively beyond the beyond compared to where you thought and those that you collaborated with thought this could go. It has turned out to be so much more than anyone ever imagined it could be.

CLIENT: That suggests there's some purposefulness in...
GUYS: Oh, indeed! Indeed!

CLIENT: And where there's purpose, there's usually a being that has a purpose.

GUYS: [pointing to the person asking the questions] There he sits.

CLIENT: Yes, but I said in linear time.

GUYS: Yes, but you're a being with the purpose of being here. You co-created your own identity in the context within which you place your identity.

CLIENT: Yes, but I did not place all the inhabitants of this planet on this planet.

GUYS: No, but you said "I'll play, if you'll play."

CLIENT: And who is "you" in this play?

GUYS: Everyone that you collaborate with — past, present, and future. This is a co-creative effort. It is the divinely inspired, created and acted and supported playground of a group of masters the likes of which you cannot begin to imagine, yourself included.

CLIENT: But "divinely inspired" suggests there is a chief being, a creator.

GUYS: There is not.

CLIENT: Then what does "divine" refer to?

GUYS: The action — it is a verb rather than a noun.

CLIENT: I'm not sure I understand all that. But, let's go back, for a moment, to meditation.

GUYS: All right.

Client: And let's talk about yoga also, at this stage.

GUYS: All right. We love this conversation. This is very juicy.

CLIENT: Tell me about yoga as it relates to me.

GUYS: Now, we're going to tell you something else before we address that.

Any idea you have that there is a way or a system that overrides your meaningfulness, and your capacity to give or withdraw meaning from anything, is mistaken. Does that make sense to you?


GUYS: You, (no matter how you identify yourself consciously), the you that in actuality exists the ultimate meaning-giver to anything that you produce, create, interact with, cooperate with, contribute to, or are contributed to from your cohorts, so to speak.

So whatever meaning ultimately there is to any activity of yours, it is first, middle, and last entirely your own. You may assign authority to give meaning to another, but the authority to assign the authority never leaves you.

CLIENT: So it's all inside?

GUYS: It's all you — inside, outside, and in transition between inside and outside. There is nothing about your experience that holds any meaning other than that which you give to it or within which you agree to go along with, or the meaning that you've authorized someone else to give to it in your name.

CLIENT: But we are composed of many parts. And as you know, many Freudians believe our unconscious consists of simply repressed desires and unfulfilled wishes and...

GUYS: And a lot more than that! There's no -simply" about it.

CLIENT: And what else is in the unconscious?

GUYS: The entire universe. There is no aspect of what happens within the divine creation which outside of "the all that is". There is nothing outside of divinity (and that's an active, not a passive; it's a verb, not a noun) that you do not have direct access to in some way. Now, is that conscious? No! So it must be unconscious. When you move into a body, such as this, whose whole purpose and being is to stretch the limits of "finity" — to see how finite the infinite can create — the whole system that you're in is about limits and boundaries.

CLIENT: Right. Then we all then develop mechanisms to push the frontiers...

GUYS: To push the frontiers of limits and boundaries, not to become unlimited and boundless,... because that's where you started,... but to see how much more use you can make of, how much more you can explore of... finity.

CLIENT: Well, certainly the Buddhist tradition has been to become boundless.

GUYS: Yes, but everyone has a different tradition and all of those are portals. It's like going into a massive educational Disney land. So you can take any ride you go to: You go to tomorrow-land. You go to frontier-land. You go to Buddhist-land. You go to Bosnia-land. You go to whatever it is that appeals to you, to you! No one directed your way; no one can change your way; no one overrides your authority — ever.

CLIENT: So when masters appear along the road, they're not sent by anybody. It's only coincidental.

GUYS: They're not sent by anyone. They just kind of show up because someone wants to play master and someone else wants to play disciple. But the roles could be interchanged, in the same way that any part of the life that you're living could be traded in for something else. The minute you at a fuller level — we don't mean better level, but the part of you that is more in charge of what you're doing than you're conscious of — you could be in and out of here in a blink.

CLIENT: Well, many of us would say, "yes I would like to expand my consciousness; I would like to break through my ordinary consciousness and be less limited."

GUYS: Yes, but you see, the purpose of being here is to be more limited so, clearly,... it doesn't work that way.

CLIENT: When you say "to be more limited," what do you mean?

GUYS: This entire system, which is a universe unto itself — three-dimensional space with time, multidimensional spaces with all kinds of different varieties of time — are all based on a single premise: limits and boundaries — parameters, beginnings, endings, containers, confinements. The entire universe was built to play with limitation. All right. We're going to give you an example of what the universe looks like from out vantage point.

CLIENT: All right.

GUYS: Not a better vantage point than yours but a different vantage point. If you were to imagine the most star-filled sky you have ever witnessed in your entire life and have that represent the entire universe that includes all of divinity, all there is, one star of that sky would represent the entire manifest universe as you conceive of it. The rest is un-manifest. All of those other stars represent universes of experience that operate non-manifest. So yours within the manifest universe is very precious and very unique, very special — it's not better, but boy is it different!

CLIENT: Why was it done that way?

GUYS: Because you as a divine-operator, thought it might be a good idea and you fiddled with it. You did that it the same way that any child fiddles with something. and we don't mean that in a demeaning way; we mean it in terms of the curiosity of the child that can pick up an object and create a universe out of a cardboard box, that can take "Legos" and build skyscrapers. One of your aspects — cohorts — got an idea of limitation and started to play with it and here you are. It's blossomed into a universe upon universe with time and space that was, and still is, amazing.

CLIENT: The way you describe it, whether or not you happen to determine the source of this creation or your role in that creation is irrelevant: Some people will; some people won't and it doesn't even matter which way they go.

GUYS: Yes, that's the way we see it. It's irrelevant. If you want to, it's there; but it could be more of a nuisance to have all of that information than be a support in any way. Can you see how much harder it is to really surrender and enjoy the game if you're paying attention to too many other pieces of information.

CLIENT: So, striving to become aware of your unconscious is not anything that has any particular importance?

GUYS: Unless you want it, in which case it becomes important to you.

CLIENT: It has no larger importance in terms of...?

GUYS: Nothing has larger importance. Nothing! There is no absolute criteria for value. It's all subjective. So what's important to you is important to you. And it does not lose its importance because someone else may not value it.

What's important to someone else does not lose its value if you do not value it. It's a subjective criteria.

CLIENT: An interesting and unique viewpoint, contrary to all of the great traditions.

GUYS: That's the one we came to offer.

CLIENT: And it's interesting that all of the great religions have a contrary notion.

GUYS: Yes, yes. And we can tell you why.

CLIENT: Why is that?

GUYS: Because they're all within a "hierarchical game" plan. The period that you' re in now — and is why we came — is an opportunity to transition out of a game focused on Hierarchy as a premise .

Now, what hierarchy does is it puts an authority in a position of greater wisdom, knowledge, or beingness, and then aligns everything up in relationship to it. So within a hierarchical game, there are rules and they are very specific: There are good, better, best; right, wrong; greater than or less than. And these are specific and absolute values that, in order to play the game, must be adhered to. But it's a game.

CLIENT: And therefore all morality, all ethics, is a matter of delusion and nonsense because...

GUYS: No, we wouldn't say that. It makes a lot of sense within the hierarchical game.

CLIENT: Yes, but outside, into the true game, the nonhierarchical game...

GUYS: Well, see, we don't say there's a true game.

CLIENT: Cause that's a value judgment — ok, in the game in which you live.

GUYS: Yes, there is no morality because there is no a- morality, so that everything is what it is and we value it according to our own value systems. This doesn't make us better. We don't see what we do as superior, but we recognize it as different. And we don't see the hierarchical game as tedious, boring. It's a most exciting game. It's been going on for such a long time — almost from the dawn of time; it has been the game that no one believed could go on and become what it's become. It is magnificent in its composition, its structure, its complexity, and everything there is to it. It's a wondrous thing, but it doesn't make it any less a game from our vantage point. It's a great game. You loved it.

CLIENT: Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

GUYS: Well, but everything is full of sound and fury and signifies whatever you want it to signify; so whether it signifies something or nothing is entirely up to you, not us. It certainly doesn't signify "nothing" to us. It's one of the most entertaining things we've ever encountered. So we give it an enormous amount of value, far more...

CLIENT: Entertainment value, though?

GUYS: Anything wrong with that?

CLIENT: No, just trying to find out where you're coming from.

GUYS: Yes, it's wonderful. See, the reason we could look at it as entertaining rather than serious in the way that you perceive it, is that we know that there is nothing in the game that can possibly harm you. In the same way that that you know there is nothing in any movie that you go to see that can come off of the screen and drag you into it in an inexorable way. We know who you are: You are the player. You are not the victim or the pawn in any game. You are the creator in the same way that the director is the one in charge of the play or script and can also play the lead and lose themselves if they are a good actor in the role that they play.

QUESTIONS: And the Bosnians are all playing and directing their own game?

GUYS: Yes, yes, and we don't mean that in the least bit disrespectfully because that is an enormous amount of authority to be willing to play that kind of game. That's a very violent game. You see, the violence of it is temporary.

CLIENT: Certainly for them because they don't live very long.

GUYS: Yes, but they live for ever, don't they? Do you have a sense of an immortal soul?

CLIENT: Hmm-huh [yes]!

GUYS: So everything is temporary. Temporal, comes with the territory — time. How long or how short it is is up to you. Now, that does not demean or diminish the intensity of the game. It's a very very intense game. We admire it and are in awe of it. It is not a game that we would want to play. But we're not equipped to play that game. We haven't been here preparing in the same way that they players have prepared. These are master games. These are not beginning entry level kindergarten games at any level whatsoever. This whole system is entirely peopled by spirit at a capacity and mastery the likes of which you cannot comprehend from where you're sitting. That is only because the container that you're in has a finite capacity for engaging at this level... not that you're inferior; it's just that you're contained. Outside of the container, this is all as simplistic to you as it is to us.


At 8:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

looks like I did not write down my username, so here goes as anonymous:
these concepts are not that new to me. But this is somehow so much more intense than what I have read before (not experienced though) ! It's giving me a headache! I need to escape for now.



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